Role of the Start-up CFO

Chris Mausler

CFO at PeerNova

Learning Objectives

My presentation focuses on my experiences relative to the four start-up CFO positions I've held. I will focus on my experiences and observations of what is important in the smaller company CFO role - comparing & contrasting with larger public-company positions where possible. My goal was to share this from both a career perspective for others who might be on this path - or as food-for-thought for my peers in this space.

Key Takeaways:

  • Typical roles and responsibilities of the CFO role in a Start-up

  • Role of raising capital is usually primary

  • Key strategic nature of the CFO in a start-up environment

"You need to run the corporate functions efficiently but you definitely want to maintain an entrepreneurial spirit in the company."

Chris Mausler

CFO at PeerNova


Hi, everyone, this is Chris Mausler. I’m the CFO of PeerNova. And I’ll be speaking with you today about the role of the CFO is the title of my presentation. And I’m happy to be here on the courts network. And I’ve titled this talk the role of strop CFO, really, from a health perspective, as I was progressing through my career. Looking to reach the CFO level, I often wondered what exactly a startup CFO does. So I thought I’d come on today and share my experiences on this, it’ll be less of a lecture more of a kind of accumulation of my experiences and observations. And hopefully this will be helpful to anyone in a similar sort of path. quick background on myself. I am the CFO of pure Nova. In terms of my sort of educational background, I have an MBA out of Columbia University. And, you know, another thing I sort of wondered on my career path was did I need a CPA, to reach the CFO level, and oftentimes you do, I think, particularly more for public company settings. So in the startup world, it’s probably a little more probable to reach the CFO level with an MBA sort of background, as the sort of the skills, the business analysis, you sort of develop an MBA and carry forth in your career tend to play better in the startup role. That being said, the first thing I would always do is hire a very strong controller. Once you get to that point, I started my career at IBM, whatever there was there just 10 plus years, and I call this my financial bootcamp is currently here where I learned what a fairly well run company, how it manages, its its financial planning, its controls, its accounting, business planning, etc. And even though a little bureaucratic, at times, I’ve taken those lessons with me everywhere, I’ve gone into a smaller setting. And I always sort of recommend to people, it’s good to have some large and medium sized company experience before you go into a startup role. So you have some sort of context in terms of how to run trust, C’s, etc.

All my career has been in high tech, I’ve worked at quantum and forming software Xilinx, which chip company and I found this helpful because it’s made, the very startup roles I’ve had have been in some of these areas. And I’ve been able to apply what I’ve learned at bigger companies, again, to a smaller setting. Pure Nova, which we’ll talk about the end is my fourth startup. So obviously, something about it, I like the first one. And it’s kind of run the gamut. The first one, even though we did a couple of rounds of funding, while I was there, it kind of hit the wall during Bust. And had to actually turn off the lights in that scenario, which was a learning experience. But my last two startups, we’ve had good exits and hard at work here at turnover, trying to make this a big success. This is the agenda. Again, it’s gonna be less and less of a lecture. But these are sort of the typical topics you’d you see in a finance discussion. So nothing, nothing rocket science, about this. But I will kind of give you a try to highlight again, my observations of what I’ve emphasized in these various disciplines in my jobs, I will close on some success factors, just general observations, or what I thought I’d have worked well for me in my career. Hopefully, that’ll be helpful to you. And I will spend the last part, just summarizing your ANOVA, introducing the company to you. It’s interesting company interesting product. And I’ll try to again, tie it back to some of the concepts we talked about earlier. So first off raising capital. This should not be surprising to anybody, but I would definitely call the primary responsibility, the CFOs role when to start companies raising capital. Now, startup, obviously is a broad term here, you can have very seed stage, early stage startups all the way to very successful unicorns, especially over the last couple of years, this number of unicorns have proliferated. I’m gonna for the purposes today, I’m going to focus more of my discussion on earlier mid stage sort of companies, that’s been more of my background so far. But obviously, they all apply. If you can do really things, you do a lot of things well in the startup role, but you’re start a company, but if you actually don’t raise enough money, it will all be for naught. So it is the first thing I think about when I get up in the morning. And the last thing before I go to bed is sort of the cash situation, when do we need more money, how we can do that, etc. So I’ve listed three things here, three topics to discuss relative to this. So number one is equity. You traditionally think about raising money. Again, my experience has mostly been with VCs, venture capitalists. As you get into later stage startups, you can see some possibilities for raising money from private equity firms, especially in the unicorn status. But just for today on this focus more my discussion on, again, earlier stage companies VC VC funded companies. So the key here and I always call this an art as well as a science and raising money is the process of how you go about doing that, right. It’s, it’s a little bit different for each company. It’s, it’s very much attributed. It’s tied to sort of your management team, your executive team, the quality of your ideas, and finding the right investors and finding the right investors can be a process off sometimes a long process. I’m sure there’s companies out there that have such a such a hot startup that they get offers right off the bat, and they go from there, in my case has to be required more work. You can talk up to, you know, 5075 100 VCs before you’re all said and done, you and your kind of roadshow. And you know, the the factors here are Yes, for the for the company, obviously, you want to raise the money investors looking for that right idea that’ll that’ll give them outsized returns. But from a corporate perspective, you’re looking for the right fit for the investor as well, you’re, you’re obviously taking their investment, but they will be with you for quite a while if they’re the primary investor, they’ll generally join your board. They’ll be investing in subsequent rounds of financings series A, B, C, D, etc. and turning on the board. And so these are people that you having a long term relationship with, and you should, you know, kind of view it that way, who’s going to help your company not just funded but help you build the company as well with their own context, their own networks. term sheets are quite important. As you raise money, hopefully, you’ll have more than one offer. If you have even if you have one offer, you need to carefully sort of consider and negotiate terms as applicable. And preferred stock which is worth joining these rounds are various terms that apply. And you need to make sure that you’re comfortable as as an executive team with the implications of those terms on the term sheet.

The second item is debt, which is probably less prominent, but just to cover it. In my my, for startups, I have raised more traditional bank debt. For companies, both traditional bank loan I use them to get a PPP loan for company. And generally this is going to more look like even covenant based based on the line of sight to profitability of a company you can secure financing. Some case I did some hardware financing, for fixed assets. The probably more common topic you’ll discuss here is venture backed venture backed debt. So there’s, there’s debt that’s available through certain certain companies that take a take on higher risk, obviously, you pay more for that and interest rates, they’ll typically take warrants as part of that. And it’s meant to ideally, sit between rounds of funding, where you’re maybe not quite ready to go out again, you’d rather push off the dilution from that for a while. But you got to find the right lender, the debt is a little bit expensive, and they are going to look at a lot of the business metrics. terms, your sort of long term credit where the credit worthiness that an equity investor would look at as well. On the the end of that topic would be in terms sort of loans or bridge financing, you’ll hear discussed convertible loans that might convert into the next round, some combination of that. So you know, and again, in my experience, I have been to companies where we’ve done this you know, if possible, try to avoid it, try to get ahead of the equity rounds, try to, you know, build on your milestones as a company to go with the traditional route, it can make the financing more complicated, because you have instruments falling into to the equity round. But it can be very often as many companies need that and it’s fairly common, as I say that the third thing I’ve listed here is the cap table. So it’s fairly straightforward your list of investors what equity stake in your company capitalization table capital for short, and it’s very important especially as a as a CFO, you sort of own the cap table. And as especially if you’ve been involved with startups that have been around a while a cap tables can get it should get a little complex prior to the waterfall analysis, so as you look towards either raising more money or perhaps an exit scenario and m&a situations, figuring out which investors get what returns versus common holders versus employees and option holders these are calculations that can get a little bit in depth depending on situation. So it’s it’s definitely part of the job CFOs job. takeaway here is that again, you want to the way this works is you’ll you’ll get around research and funding to achieve certain milestones that give you enough runway to achieve those milestones. So you got to work really hard to achieve those as a company. And you want to sort of start your fundraising process well ahead of the next set of milestones that you need to achieve so that you don’t run out of money. Next, I like to talk to about what I’ve produced here at CEO sort of role. In most startups, you don’t have a CFO, even a lot of public companies don’t have a Chief Operating Officer role, but in that, I phrased it this way, because a CFO really is this sort of role, you know, the the executive team is generally smaller than a public company. And, you know, whatever it doesn’t fit into the CEOs role tend to fit into your role. So let me cover that in a little bit of detail. The first thing you have listed here is strategy development, execution. Very, very critical. Now, if you’ve, I’m sure everyone in finance has read, discussions on the evolution of a CFO, whether a public company, a private company need to get more involved in the business side of things involving strategy, etc. which is true across the board, but it’s particularly pronounced in the startup situation. Again, a good CFO is going to lead that strategy effort at the company, because it really drives everything else. It drives the business model, first and foremost, which the CFO needs to to lead and understand and get ahead of it, in at least everything, it really drives everything else to go to market strategy, staffing, strategy, partner strategy, and even m&a thoughts down the line. So again, active remain active in this role is really critical. For CFO, the second line item there is where we come commonly referred as FPA support, and in a larger company, you know, supporting these various functions, which can be very larger than themselves. a startup company, obviously, it’s on a smaller scale. But you will typically be VFP in a sport with company in addition being the CFO. So at least in my experience, every company I’ve been at, I’ve been the lead FPA sort of role. And so there’s a variety of things that go along with this on the sales side. And it’s,

again, figuring out the investment strategy around the go to market strategy. It’s a lot of cases, it’s figured out what partners you use, if you depending on your selling model, it’d be involved with negotiating those sort of contracts, third party relationships, r&d, the same most companies I’ve been with have had outsourced r&d to some limited fashion, you need to help figure that out, negotiate those deals. And for hardware companies. Again, I’ve been involved with fairly in depth, manufacturing sort of contracts, where we’re outsourcing various functions. And again, the CFO to me right in the middle of leading and monitoring that effort. third item there is sort of catch all but ga functions is probably more than I haven’t listed. But it almost goes without saying that you typically end up with all those as a startup CFO, especially in the early stage. And you need to become very proficient with that, you’re very much operational sort of capacity, I’ll pick just a few. So HR, for instance, generally, in earlier stage companies, you will not have a full time HR person. So the CFO would be covering for that role, and need to have some adequacy to handle that flexibility to handle that. A good model nowadays is sort of a PEO type of companies that provide payroll benefits, and they’ll provide limited HR support or part time HR support. So that’s been a good bottle for me. I’ll just mention another one legal. Again, small company usually not going to have an in house counsel or need one. But you’ll be the coordination point for generally a corporate law firm that handles a lot of your corporate setup. Your financings, things of that nature, as well as depending on your company, technology, trademark, patent work, would all flow through the CFO, so you have to be comfortable, and proactive and working on those. So again, the takeaway here is that you’d sort of wear both hats, to, to guide strategy as well as handle a smooth functioning of the company just helping company execute smoothly. I think the ladder is sort of just expected, oh, it’s table stakes. So again, the better you can be at actually leading strategy, working with the management team with their executives, the better. So let me move on now to financial guidance. As I said, Here, remarkably self evident perhaps, but you are the source of truth in all financial matters. So I’ve listed a few items here where that all comes into play. Now you’re not a public company or startup. So you don’t have the formality perhaps of plans and budgets and forecasts, especially mass earning releases and guidance to the street etc. But however, you do all these same activities. investors will require these to make investments Your your board will obviously really sort of this output this content for every board meeting. And, and board meetings happen more frequently in private companies, by the way. So my experience, it’s every two months plus or minus. So you are kind of constantly from your board reviewing your progress since the last meeting, your last forecast changes to that milestone to be achieved and happy not. So it’s very active dynamics. The CFO is, is obviously the control point for all that. And the other point I want to make there is that you are the, again, the source of truth you need to work, you’ll be working very indefinitely with your management team, your executives to, to coordinate board meetings. In every job I’ve had, I’m actually publishing the board, information to the board, coordinating the meetings, the follow ups. But you need to have an independent voice, as well, as called upon board meetings, you need to be able to speak the truth, your own view of things your own, you need to do that diplomatically, perhaps, but it’s just part of the part of the game. stewardship is what I call this third one. And in my history, in my experience, you know, CFO will get quite involved, and will have challenges associated with either rapidly scaling up a company, as you’re hopefully being very successful, or, conversely, downsizing operations. And they both have their unique set of challenges scaling up. Again, you’re the facilitator of the execution of the company. So the last thing you want to be in the situation of is not having the right infrastructure or administrative processes, or what have you, to actually help the company scale. So you need to be ahead of that. And that’s always tricky, because in general, you know, the company’s gonna invest

less in sort of the overhead sort of functions and more, as well should be in sales and r&d. So you need to be keeping a very close eye on getting ahead of this curve when needed. Conversely, due to economic situations, change the strategy need for pivot what have you, you know, often, you know, if your companies as a treatment has to downsize, the CFO would take a lead role as you might expect, managing a process, having their view on the analysis of what needs to be done, and carrying through, and you’re very much immersed in that process. It’s, it’s not pleasant, but it is part of the job, you need to be good at, quite frankly. So just to summarize, here, you absolutely need a strong partnership with your CEO. Very critical again, executive teams tend to be smaller and startup companies, so you need to have that. But you also need to have your independent audits as well. I think the best situation I can describe here is that if you have a healthy relationship, where you can debate ideas, debate, things that need to be done strategies, etc. You have to unify on a decision, but it’s best if you have a relationship where you can have a healthy debate on on business topics to an exciting topic accounting and taxes. So, so, all this all the content here this on the slide is around sort of compliance related matters. So your startup, obviously, the emphasis is not on the accounting process at all. However, you do need to produce accounting statements, you have to have audits done to produce obviously filed tax returns needed. This will be part of investors rights agreements, and any financing you do this. Now that being said, You have flexibility, timing and cost, generally, what I do is I you know, you can push off the timing of audits etc. till after the public accounting season sort of winds down a bit, get better rates, more attention from firms, etc. So that’s one aspect and, and even though this might be less of a focus area, as you sort of grow into a bigger company, you know, as soon as you get to any kind of exit scenarios, particularly m&a. It almost goes without saying that all the sort of compliance related areas to company come to this latest shine as shown on those and you need to be ready to have all your compliance ducks in a row and I’s dotted T’s crossed since the second bolt there’s global expansion. What I mean by that is, most tech companies I’ve been involved with have expanded internationally, either for sales or, or work product or both. And again, the CEO, you’re going to sort of lead that effort, right? figuring out where what locations if you’re establishing entities where they need to be one of the best plus minuses for each, for each place, what type of entity you need to to establish or not establish. Those are all sort of functions that that have fallen, fallen on CFO as well as hiring your national people now certainly more prevalent these days. Just sort of the PEO sort of model. And that’s a I would advocate for that. Where possible where it makes sense for your company. Again, this where there’s actually a third party that’s that’s kind of running a legal entity where you’re hiring people through them. It more or less your, your, your employees. But the IRS or the administration of the legal entity processes is outsourced to it to a third party. And that generally works well. The third bullet here is just a very, sort of catch all bullet, but because I’ll say he’s so coming, he starts with very little process procedures or the like, and you build up as the company grows. And the key for the CFO, because you will generally own all those things, is to figure out when to put in there no more structure versus less. And you want to do that very, very carefully. You want to do it, you know, with with costs in mind. But again, you don’t want to be a situation where the company is ready to scale, and you don’t have the systems, the processes to do that. So the key takeaway here is just a balance that, you know, you need to run the corporate functions sort of efficiently. But you definitely want to maintain an entrepreneurial spirit in the company. The attraction for employees to go work at a startup is twofold, right. And one is the love, of making money on options and investment and equity. The second thing usually is for good employees that like it is the working in a small company working in a more entrepreneurial type environment, and having that flexibility to see your contributions have a greater impact. So you always want to balance that. I remember when I worked at quantum Bill Miller, the CEO, always told my group was in a corporate group that least want to sort of think two or three times before you put in a new process or new procedure, you know, want to don’t want too much burden on on the operations of the company. Remember that.

So, I’ve come to my sort of catch all slide here, as expected, it’s gonna be just my observations on sort of what’s worked worked for me, I found helpful, I’m sure everyone listening today will have their own set of set of factors that they could add to this list. So number one, I put as a strong external network, and but what I mean by that is I, reflecting on my own circumstances, as I progress through kind of the early part of my career, you know, it became very good at making, having a strong network internally at the companies to work that to succeed and move up, etc. When you arrive at a startup role, a small company, you are it right, and you have very little sort of support structure around you, if any, and having a network of business professionals that you can, that you can tag for advice. Because you will know you’re you guarantee, you’ll come up on any number of situations that you’ve never dealt with before. And having someone that you can can contact that you have a personal connection with that can help give some guidance, if they’ve had that extra experience is invaluable. And I would add to this, even to consider getting a coach, executive coach, or the like, you know, my case, I was very fortunate, I found a sort of a friend who who specializes in career advice. And, you know, the last five, eight years, I’ve utilized his counsel immensely. And so I’d consider that for anyone out there. Second there is to sort of develop relationships with key service providers. So what I mean by that is that every time you go to a new startup, I’m a fourth now you have you build up relationships with accounting, accounting firms, insurance providers, law firms, you always think about keeping those in place. So you don’t have to reinvent the wheel, everywhere you go, you’ll have a lot on your plate, you don’t have to do a sort of full study every time to pick the pick a service provider, a good partner for your company. So the relationships that you build there can last you know, for your career. Talked about this originally, but having some experience with sort of larger medium sized companies can help you in the startup role. Because you can kind of have a vision of how things work well, when when it’s more structure in place, you can figure out how to get to point A to point B and be prepared to change course when needed. I think a lot of startups you’ll hear me once I work for included, you know it’s again, it’s it can be a journey, right and you know, the startup role, time goes very quickly and you need to be able to change course the the confidence and fortitude to do that on a dime sometimes if needed. So, the key takeaway here is, it’s a fun job. It can be very challenging at times, especially when when raising money is first and foremost in your on your plate. So try to give yourself as much air cover as you can with some of the the ideas that are listed here to help you succeed. There’s one book I’d recommend off topic a little bit here but you know, there’s a Michael Watkins first 90 days for success. I’ve kind of used that as a blueprint as I’ve gone into different roles. And I’d recommend that either for big, bigger company, public company or private company. It’s good. It’s good blueprint. Another book and get off topic slightly. I just finished reading a biography on Leonardo da Vinci, Walter Isaacson, Walter Isaacson wrote it, and you can learn things you’ll find yourself researching a lot as a startup company. Oh, and as I read that book, it struck me as, as great as the mind is, Leonardo was and fantastic generational talent for art and for science. He had a downside. It was actually a trouble finishing things at times. And what struck me as I read that book, his excellent book was you need as a startup company, you need brilliant people. But you also need people who can execute those brilliant ideas. So make sure as you evaluate growing your startup company that you have a little bit of a mixture there, because you need people who can, can get things done without as a lot of support, or support staff behind them as possible. With that, let me tell you to print over and over is a company startup company. It’s been around, been around a while and I joined actually five years ago, it was my CEO for one of my prior companies, like me Come over here that we had to exit together.

I think for me, turnovers in the data space, and we have raised a fair amount of money, we actually raised over $70 million dollars since I’ve been here, venture backed company. My whole conversation around finding the right investors was really critical for pure Nova, we actually started this company with some ideas around data transparency, immutability of data in the sort of the blockchain, some of the blockchain concepts from five or six years ago. Now, we’ve turned those into over five or six years now a very robust enterprise software product in the data space. But you know, we’ve had to find the right investors that would kind of go with us on that journey along the way, we’ve had great investors, that really stuck with us over those five or six years and really set up set us up for some tremendous success. So we’ve had to sort of navigate some of these ups and downs, changes, of course, a little bit over the over that time. So let me start with the mission statement. This is what a printer is about. So tiny enterprises to unlock data, increase efficiency, discover business opportunities, and I’ll talk a little bit more about what that what that means. Our platform or software platforms called cuneiform, a picture of it over there on the on the screen on the right. For those who might be interested, that’s actually yeah, the ancient Sumerian writing system, in terms of making information or data, transparent and immutable. And what we really do here is need like trust and trust and transparency across both data. So data itself as well as business flows. So it’s the intersection of that has data govern the quality of that data. And then how is it used in business processes, this is what our platform helps to simplify for firms. And bring them returns on that. I want to show one slide first, this is the we call our broader market, that data governance market, it’s a 5 billion plus market. Based on our estimates, I say plus, because our product actually stand spans a few few different markets. But it’s very important as a CFO that you have a good handle on what your market is. to be a successful startup. Again, this is pretty obvious, but you need a good idea. You need to be able to develop some solution product, you need a big market to solve. If you solve a you solve a problem in a small market, you’re not can be successfully able to raise the capital that you need. This slide just quickly highlights the problem with existing problems. Now our company is actually focused on the financial services sector, as a first vertical, we are in the midst of broadening that to other adjacent markets. But for a first vertical, we focused on financial institutions, because they tend to have these sort of data issues to a large extent. And even though they spend the most, from an IT perspective across any industry, they still have these kind of issues just based on the nature of a lot of data, all different institutions, this global investment bank tends to be global, a lot of regulations so they can’t change sometimes very easily, etc. As for things we’ve highlighted, so this end to end data quality challenges, so data again from World War and best bank, if they’re trading millions of trades, one particular category around the world this they didn’t read a lot of places, they have different 20 to 30 plus counterparties to dealing with information coming from them. And how do you keep cohesive integrated view of that data as a challenge? enterprise sense knowledge since be siloed in Pacifica It’s doing specific things. And it’s very difficult to track and change the controls on data. This concept of metadata, which might be point tools for that is, this business process sort of flows freely with business rules definition, very difficult in a large setting like that. And these firms will tend to have many different systems, hundreds of 1000s different systems applications that kind of grew over time. And in keeping this cohesive view of the data governance, data management data quality issue. And then the last thing, the last item, there is this digital transformation, almost all the major banks have some sort of initiative to have digital transformation to take history of legacy sort of systems and bring it into more modern type it architecture, we can get more of this sort of management of discrete management data. But it’s challenging. And our system provides an elegant pathway to do that, which I’ll describe in a little bit here.

So this is what we call effective data governance is the other the other aspect of this is enhancing business performance management. And it’ll cut across these ideas here. So what our system provides, the four challenges are Up above the items in blue is what our platform provides. And I’ll and I’ll speak briefly on these, again, it’s it’s data quality, timeliness. So we’re actually running these rules across an enterprise, across any type of different stages at different data sources. And we can ensure data quality across the view. And our platform is used actually to target to use like business users at the institutions that are that are running business processes, they have reconciliations they have reporting, they have different functions they need to do in our platform enables them to do that in elegant fashion. And we provide an end to end lineage just a second box. So by lineage is where data comes into the firm, it gets transacted upon, and then how it eventually is reported or stored, or what have you. We keep a automated lineage view of that keep it consistent across the enterprise across all functions as well, geographies, like ladies, etc. The third box is how businesses actually transact on that data. So we can provide controls on that the metadata is associated, the data actually travels with the data in our in our platform, we can it can be it can be changed, it can be modified, tweaked. And all this enables the firm to manage their functions much more easily. If they’re doing reconciliations across millions of transactions, they can change the tolerances, they can track versions of metadata and do it in a very elegant fashion. And what that leads to eventually, is the ability to take what it’s like very complicated processes or complicated data structures and eventually move on this transformation into which tend to be on prem today to more cloud driven, API driven sort of models, change data easily with their, with their partners, even within within the firm. These are the four areas that we that our solution is, is used by in the financial industry. So data plus governance is sort of what I highlighted. So this reconciliation of data internal or what have you, data monetization, another very important solution for customers, once we have this lineage view, and this proved data quality, improved data governance is many, many applications firms looking to monetize your data, there’s the value often is locked away, because they can’t get a clear picture, enable them to do that monetization. effectively. Our platform provides that regulatory reporting is another key area, sort of the outcome of all the transactions in a company and there’s a very complex set of regulations even coming out in 2008 financial downturn, they’re still getting phased in. As an example, there’s a regulation called csdr that deals with the settlement of transactions between firms and in a large firm can’t complete the settlement of transactions within a specified time, we know they could find they could find based on value these transactions which can be in the millions of dollars. Having a data platform such as ours helps them to have a very clear view of their data, it helps them settle things quicker and avoid those those sort of bad bad outcomes. intraday liquidity, again, a fourth area is deal with unlocking the power of data within firm. So if you have billions of dollars in collateral or you have trouble viewing your position across a global firm, because of some of these data issues, our platform provides clarity into your account positions into your collateral positions. So you can make sure data is reconciled so that you can take appropriate action on the quiddity moving money around or even loaning, loaning assets out as is often the case. Let me close there. Appreciate the opportunity to talk to you today. And these are actually their locations. But that brings up one last point. I’m coming to you during the COVID worldwide pandemic and like a lot of companies or software company or everyone’s working from home helps you see the background and provides an Excel challenges and talking back to the flexibility of the CFO role. You know, one of the pleasures that I’ve had to deal with is trying to figure out what does this mean going forward as the whole slew of new HR regulations coming down from cares act and whatnot? So you need to understand that as a CFO as the de facto head of HR. When do we open up our office again? What does that look like? All those sort of questions. If you look around, they they follow the CFO, it’s when they fall back on. So you got to be very flexible as as a startup CFO because you do a lot of things that you you may not have done before. And yeah, it definitely keeps the job interesting. So I want to thank you for your time today, there is a opportunity to leave questions and comments in the courts format, so I encourage you to do so I love to see those and appreciate your time today. Thank you so much.

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