On our journey to improve retention in a high turnover industry, we've launched many initiatives. Most have had marginal impacts, if any. Recently, we went "old school" and began leadership development focused own accountability. The results have been significantly more positive.
- Why accountability matters
- How to develop leaders to be better at accountability
- Ping pong tables have zero impact on retaining top talent
Hi everyone, my name is David Hawthorne. I am the chief people officer for Pacific Bells and World Wide Wings. Here to talk to you today about accountable the accountable workplace leadership in the workplace. So I call this the accountable workplace. Or my subtitle, why leadership is greater than ping pong tables and we’llchat about ping pong tables in a bit and kind of walk you through that. But before we get started, I want to tell you a little bit about who we are and kind of who I am. So Pacific bells and worldwide wings, we’re franchisees of Taco Bell and Buffalo WildWings. company began in 1989. In the Pacific Northwest outside of Portland. I joinedthe company in 2002, we had about 65, Taco Bell’s in 2002, with about 1200 team members. Since that time, we have kind of grown tenfold in size. Here in the last 18years. We currently operate 247 Taco Bells, with 6000 team members, as well as 67, Buffalo Wild Wings with about 5000 team members. And we have a handful of other brands regionally based here in the Pacific Northwest with about 1000, folks. So about 12,000 team members total from the 1200. When I first started, I’ve worked my way up in the company in the in the human resources department, became chief people officer in 2015, where we began significantly growing at that point, we’ve more than doubled in size in the last five years. So lots of growth, which gives us lots of things to talk about. As many of you are likely aware, the restaurant industry has significant turnover, just the nature of the beast, we have a lot of high school, college kids who come and work, they work for a limited amount of time, we have some people who make this a second job or career out of this job and wind up saying was for a long time. But by and large our people leave fairly frequently, we average tenure of about six to nine months, with our teams in the restaurants and go through quite a few people, sometimes more than we should. Sosomething we always measure. And one of the things we measure is, you know, oneof the top reasons that people leave us when we do have a bad turnover year really kind of what’s caused it. And these results are in order from the most frequent and down to the least frequent least in those in those common areas. And this is a result, the surveys are a result of engagement surveys, retention surveys, what we call stay interviews, as well as exit and post exit interviews. So lots of good data here. And we’ve done these surveys three or four times over the last several years. And with the exception of a few things, mix it up in the middle. number one and number nine pretty much stay exactly where they are. So poor leadership that the bad boss syndrome, I call it is the number one reason that we lose people. low pay number nine, you know, we always whenever we go talk to restaurant managers, orthe district managers around why people are leaving, the most common answer we get is well, they can go to McDonald’s or Wendy’s or name a competitor and they can make 25 cents 50 cents more an hour. And the first question that we always ask from the HR department is how they know that what what caused them to go look at Wendy’s or McDonald’s or one of our competitors and find out they were paying more. Most very happy people don’t or they’re not they’re really looking. Some do but but most don’t. So, you know, ask ourselves those questions. What’s making that happen? commonly, especially in exit interviews, we’ll get the low pay answer. Because it’s the easiest, it’s the least confrontational way, it’s a lot harder to tell somebody Well, my boss was a jerk. Versus Hey, me, valances paid me 50 cents more an hour, whatever that is. So it’s kind of what we found. So we began
kind of looking to say, Okay, how do we begin to attack some of these turnover pieces. And then it really hit home for us.And our restaurant Support Center, what we call our corporate headquarters, our home office, in the Vancouver Washington area. We had about 40 people in that office. We call it five years ago. These were payroll, people, accountants, finance people at HR did your typical support staff, for any any large company. But with the growth that we’ve had, I mentioned how much we’ve grown in the restaurants over time, the support staff has to grow to support those people as well. And so we’ve more than doubled the size of our restaurant Support Center spaces get a little tight, but we make it work. We’re up to about 90 people that sit in our RSC right now. And that’s happened a lot in the last 18 months. But there was a lot of turnover along the way as well. So we really needed to strategy not just to retain our folks in the restaurant where we know we have high turnover, but to retain our folks at the restaurant Support Center where again like a large company will With a support staff turnover should not be that high. So we tried lots of stuff. And I throw this out there anybody who’s read anything about what I call the pop culture that’s out there, and the tech companies and the startups, etc. You know, they’re giving away free drinks and snacks, they put a game room in, they’ve got a great kitchen, they got lots of swag, they pass out, everybody’s got an employee, the month program of if some flavor. And we certainly tried many of these, if not all of them over time, but really kind of culminated for us about two years ago, we broke down. And yes, we bought a ping pong table. We put it in the office, we dedicated a space in our very tight office to have this ping pong table. And we thought, what a great way to build morale, we’ll have a tournament. So we seated folks and we started this tournament, it lasted over about six weeks. And we had a great time, it was phenomenal the enthusiasm, the people that would go watch, it was really kind of awe inspiring, if you will, to watch people rally around this. And then reality hit threeof the four top finishers in the in the ping pong tournament weren’t with us six months later. And so we learned a very valuable lesson with this whole venture. Andthat is ping pong table has zero impact on mitigating bad leadership is great, we all had fun watching the the ping pong games and going through the tournament, crowning the winners etc. But at the end of the at the end of the game, you have to go back and report that you know that person that that you really don’t like, that exhibits those bad leadership qualities. And and it didn’t stay. So we can play ping pong all we wanted to, but there was still work to be done. And they were still jerks to work for, as existed most every organization. So we then began to kind of say, Okay, what do we do next. And of course, would the number one reason for turnover being a bad boss or poor leadership, this was really kind of easy, hey, let’s go after that low hanging fruit, that’ll fix most of our retention issues. It’s always number one, that’ll that’ll fix it. And that’s what I wanted to remind our teams what low hanging fruit really meant. And that was something that was kind of easy to achieve, it was something you could get without a lot of effort. And and poor leadership is not something that you fix without a lot of effort. And especially as youlook across the entire organization, we’ve got 350 locations, with about 1000, bosses, supervisors, managers at some level, who are responsible for staff. And so fixing one person is difficult fixing 1000 people exponentially more challenging.
Even if there’s only 10% of those people that are that are doing a bad job. It’s difficult. So it really kind of became how do we do this? How do we go after this? We’re, you know, we’re over? Does the states How do we go after people all over the country and kind of mitigate these issues. So the first thing we want to do is we wanted to define what makes a bad boss, we’ve all worked for a bad boss, we wouldn’t be where we are today without learning some of those valuable lessons of working for that that person. But but we didn’t really want to focus on how do we fixeach individual thing that makes a bad boss, because there are so many things thatmake a bad boss, we could we could be tackling little nuggets here and there for years. So then we said, well, what makes a good boss, let’s look at what good leadership is. And let’s take those and let’s really highlight those. But there’s a ton of those as well. We’ve all had good bosses. And we think back to all the great things that those bosses did for themselves for their teams for us, and how do we teach that kind of stuff. So again, without wanting to go after everything, we identified three skills that we felt were critical, at least to form the foundation of good leadership. And the first one was really about integrity. Because it really didn’tmatter what else you built on if you didn’t have a foundation of trust, if you as a leader could not be countered on to do what you said, there was never going to be that trust in order for other people to come forth and say, Hey, I’ll follow you through a brick wall because I trust what you’re telling me and we’ll and we’ll do that. After that integrity piece is built, we really had to focus on communication. And this was about being clear, letting people know expectations, what was going on your news of the day, whatever those things were. But then we wanted to teach people really to verify that the communication happened. Communications a two way street, just because you said it or send it in an email or posted a memo or throw it on the bulletin board. Doesn’t mean everybody got it. So how do you verify that you talk to people you ask them, you know, hey, what do you think of the email? What do you think of this initiative? Hey, I just we just talked about this Repeat back to me kind of kind of what what it is your goal is and where you’re going. So those were the things we began teaching people. And then we also one ofour core values is we call it over communication. When you think you’ve communicated enough, communicate some more, you can never be too clear, you can never be too prescribed and what needs to happen to let people know that. Andthen last of these three that we really kind of focused on this is really the focus that we spent most of our efforts on over the last year and a half or so has been around accountabilities. And this isn’t just how leaders hold themselves accountable, doing the things they say they’re gonna do, following up, etc. But more importantly, how do they hold their teams accountable? How do their team members know that they’ve done a good job, or they’ve done that they’ve not done a good job? How do we tell them, and this is really what I call where the magic happens. And some of you may have seen this, this graphic before, you know, accountability is hard. Not everybody is good at it. Not everybody wants to do it, not everybody understands it.And telling somebody that they didn’t do a good job, that they had a performance gap, they missed the mark, whatever you want to call it, it’s not easy. And it, it doesn’t come naturally for the vast majority of people. So we really had to stretch people and get them out of their comfort zone, to do the things that were required in order to hold people accountable. So they knew they were they were holding
people accountable. And the hard part of this really is just around that confrontation, part of accountability. Good leaders rarely see accountability as confrontation, it’s feedback, I’m going to talk to you about how you did good, bad orindifferent, good leaders get used to that it’s just part of their repertoire, they neverthink about it. Most people don’t grow up knowing that most people have to learn this as as a skill and kind of work through that way. And it’s and it’s kind of scary, because it is sort of confrontational. And we first thing we did was we train people what to expect when you sit down and talk to somebody because people are complex. They have diverse feelings. They’re coming from different places, we all have lenses and filters that we see things through, that are different than everybody else’s. So when we sit down to talk to somebody, to let them know that, hey, you did a great job, you didn’t do so good a job. I wish you’d done this differently. Whatever those things are, there’s a ton of reactions they can have fromthe Hey, I get it, you’re right, all the way to completely psycho, if anybody has been human resources for more than a couple of weeks, has, has met all of these and kind of seeing all these people because it happens as leaders preparing to deal withthat and understanding and this is what scares them is that you how’s this person going to react? And what am I going to do if it goes sideways, they tend to fall into acouple of camps. And there’s some common behaviors that leaders exhibit when they’re faced with this. Most people, most leaders avoid the issue, they avoid confrontation, you know, hey, he could all be burned down behind me. But there’s nothing to see here because I just don’t have the time or the will or the know how togo let someone know, we need to fix things. And then there are those leaders on kind of the opposite end of the spectrum that kind of overcompensate for that fear, and really take it to an extreme. Yeah, you did what I’ll fix that, I’ll be a bully. I’ll be aggressive, I’ll be super aggressive, because that way, you can’t get emotional with me because I’ve been super aggressive not understanding that that just brings more emotion into the situation. So we really had to kind of tackle this and say, you know, how do we get people to either address it as they should, or to address it appropriately, so that they get the right result, because really all it’s about is getting the right results.So what we did and are still doing because I will tell you because leadership is not low hanging fruit. It’s not something you fix in six months, and then go on and moveto other things. This is sort of an ongoing sort of practice that we had the challenge that we had outside of our RSC, you know, we’ve got 300 plus locations. The restaurant industry, retail industry specifically has a lot of people who grow up in that industry. We don’t necessarily get college educated folks with business degreesand have taken leadership classes that come into our restaurants and want to lead we do not common, most people. We have a lot of our managers that have been with us for 30 years, and they’re just now hitting 50 years old. They started in high school or college and they made it a career. And they’re doing well but they had to learn along the way. So how do we teach them along the way and kind of bring them up. The other thing we found too, is poor leaders exists at all levels of the organization. So this isn’t as easy as waving your magic wand and saying hey, VP, Director of Ops, you need to get out there and coach your people to do this stuff, right because in some cases Is those VPS and directors of Ops, they were, they were
not much better than our new managers in the buildings. So we really had our field based HR team kind of step up and step in. So take it a sigh here and kind of walk you through our group, as a as a team. So we have about 10 HR people that are strictly field based, we have a director on our Buffalo Wild Wings side of the business, a director on Taco Bell side of the business, each of them have four HR business partners who report to them. But they’re field based. So in our restaurants in Ohio, we have an HR business person in Ohio, who kind of handles those things. Because their field base, we require them to be in the field. So unlike a lot of HR people who you know, the common HR misconception is my favorite one, we sit around and push paper all day and talk on the phone, send emails, we have our fair share that to do. But we’d like to spend our time in the field with people. That’s why we got into this business in the first place. So you know, one of the things we had our HR business partners do is really get out in the field, spend 60 to 75% of their time in restaurants, not just investigating sexual harassment issues, or EEOC complaints, or you know, whatever those things are that come up, but really focusing on our time identifying those leaders that had challenges that had high turnover, get in and provide the coaching for them that they needed to do the things they needed to do to improve their processes. So what did our HR business partners do to get out there, they really began meeting with leaders one on one in small groups and kind of walk them through how do you begin this process of holding people accountable? So one of the first things you have to do to hold somebody accountable is they have to know they’re going to be held accountable. So you’ve got to set the expectation set the goal. So get out there we talk about what the goals are those goals can be financial, do we make profit? Did we did we hit our labor costs, cost of sales, whatever those things are? They could be people based, we get everybody trained on the new module? Did we get everybody trainedon the new handbook? Whatever those things might be, we set the expectation. What are the behaviors to achieve the expectation, you know, we had this set, we have to say guardrails? Not often Does everybody know the right thing to do? Or theright way to do something? So what are those guardrails? What are the do’s and don’ts of getting it done? And then lastly, and most importantly, how do we measure it? How do we know at the end of the day that it really got done? So they can go back and say, Look, it got done or did not get done? and be able to talk about that. And then we’ve got to communicate results in progress along the way. Remember that communication piece? We’ve got to tell people how they’re doing? analogy I’ve heard us many times is around is around bowling. And how do you know if you knocked all the pins down because you can see them? If you hang a black curtain up and throw the ball through the black curtain, you have no idea what happens. You’ve got to communicate that and that’s really raising that curtain and allow you to see everything that’s going on. So we ask our managers to do that.And most importantly, we ask our managers not to sugarcoat anything. I think one of the easiest things that new, inexperienced or poor leaders can kind of fall into thehabit of is sugarcoating something, hey, I don’t want to hit you too hard with this. I want to be nice. Let me let me walk you through it easily. And and you really think that you’re being kind to the person that you’re talking to. But you’re not you’re really not setting the right expectation, giving them the right feedback, communicating the right result, you’re making yourself feel better, but that doesn’t
accomplish the goal that you need to so we teach people that, you know, no, don’t sugarcoat, just get right to it. Tell him what’s going on. Tell him why. And tell him how and kind of walk through those pieces. Teach leaders how to respond to mistakes and to performance gaps.We use this phrase all the time in our workplaces. And we often tell leaders, nobodywakes up in the morning and says How can I screw up work today? Some of you are nodding your head or laughing maybe you know that person who does but for the most part, nobody wakes up in the morning and says how am I going to screw up today? So if we didn’t meet expectations, why did we not meet expectations. And we’ve used this matrix for years to kind of walk people through what you’re looking at to determine how you’re going to respond. And we call this the train coach council model. So the first thing is when someone meets or exceeds expectations when they’ve hit the goal, we’ve got to recognize and it’s often as managers as leaders and something we forget to tell people they did a good job. One of the mostimportant things we can do is tell people they’ve done a good job, let them know. But when they haven’t met that expectation, we don’t always just go right to you know, hey, do that again. You’re fired or Hey, let me let me retrain you. I hate that word retrain. We’ve trained them they know how to do it or do that right. So if they cannot do the job if no matter what they absolutely cannot do the job or Hit the expectation, because they don’t know they’ve never done it, then we have to train them, if we’ve trained them, and we know they know how to do the job, they’ve demonstrated it before they’ve hit the result before whatever that is, but maybe they’re not doing it right now. Or maybe the results are inconsistent, or maybe they’re, they’re developing some bad habits, it’s time for coaching. And I would, I would say that in our restaurants, 75% of the time our leaders spend talking to people around coaching, constantly tweaking those behaviors, getting them in the right frame of mind, getting them in the right place, so that we’ve got the right thing happening. If they do not do the job, because they will not do the job. That’s a performance issue of some kind. They know how but they refuse to do it. habitual offenders, maybe there are policy violations involved. That’s when counseling kind of comes in. And we have a whole module that we teach our leaders on when we get to the level of counseling, and what does that look like and how we do it. But really, for us, because most of this is around coaching and training, and recognizing we spend most of our time and this accountability piece really talking about that, that recognize training coach. So when they must respond, we tell them why they must respond. If there’s a performance gap, someone missed something, we owe it to them to let them know that happened. Or conversely, if they hit the goal, we oweit to them to tell them that they met the goal, great job, please do it again. We love when that happens. If we don’t tell someone that they missed a goal, if we don’t tellsomeone that was a performance gap, or that or they were short of expectations, they’re going to walk away with one of several assumptions. One assumption may just be well, they told me I that that number, and I didn’t hit it. And they didn’t say anything to me. Maybe it doesn’t matter maybe that that maybe maybe I’ve just thought it was important, but it’s not. So I’m not gonna worry about it anymore. Maybe they thought, Boy, I didn’t I didn’t hit that number. They told me I had to. Butit didn’t happen. Maybe it’s just not important right now. Or maybe it’s not the
priority that needed to be. Or they may not be aware at all, they might even realize that they fell short on something. And this really comes back to bite us and performance appraisals, which I’ll touch on in just a second. If we don’t tell them, guess what they make no changes their behavior. So we have a performance gap. We don’t tell them about the performance gap, or we communicate it poorly. And they don’t make any changes. Well, guess what, next week, next month, next year, we still have the same performance gap. This hasn’t set them up for success, it doesn’t set the leader up for success, it doesn’t set the organization up for success. So we owe it to them to let them know kind of what’s going on. The other piece of this that happens and we let leaders know that as and everybody can kind of empathize with this, they’ve been there before, when you’re a great employee, and you’re doing a great job. And you know, you’re doing a great job because you eitherknow or you’ve been told. And you’ll see someone else not do a good job and get away with it gets frustrating. And we lose great team members if the frustration gets too high. Or sometimes even worse, those great team members become mediocre team members, because hey, doesn’t matter. I’ll just lower my standards as well. Why am I work in that heart? If everybody else is getting away with it? So lots of good reasons that explain the importance of responding?Yes, you recognize the goal wasn’t hit, it’s your duty obligation to that person and tothe organization to respond and let them know kind of what’s going on? How do we affect all this? So you know, for us is really all comes down the HR business partners, we did lots of small group sessions, regionally, where we could pull a bunch of managers in from stores and really talk about this whole process and how it worked. But we do a lot of shoulder to shoulder time out in the field, we use a base planning process, our managers, at every level, will walk through their key people on a formal call or in a formal meeting with HR ops leaders in the room, and really kind of talk about that and we begin to identify performance gaps. Well, that person’s great, what would make them a superstar, that person’s good, what would make them great, hey, this person is at risk of losing their job if their performance continues along this line. What do we need to do to kind of fix that? So once we’ve identified those performance gaps, we then sit down with the leader or HR business partner sit down with the leader or leaders and kind of determine what’s the root cause? Is it recognize train coach or counsel? Is there something that specifically that we need to do to address the performance gap so that we can fix it? And then we help them get that response together. And then we do a lot of scripting and role playing. And this is, you know, everybody hates role playing when we do group exercises, but it’s critical stuff. It really helps give you that script, those basic keywords to use things not To say, when you go into this meetings, these meetings how to how to set the meeting up for success, both. From a physical perspective, emotional perspective, a business perspective, HR business partners will witness these meetings where necessary, especially if you know, the leader is really new, orwe think the team member is going to be very difficult. And the HR business partners are prepared to step in at the conversation begins to go sideways and recover that, because that happens, you experienced leaders, they don’t always know what to do. So sometimes we have to point them in the right direction. After the conversation, we give coaching back to the leader, hey, how do you think you
did? Here’s some things that I saw, we also go back and talk to the team member, hey, how to how to go, how is that conversation? Do you feel like you understand what what the issues were. And then we encourage the leader in the team member to get back together and talk about those things, again, just to make sure that everybody’s on the same page when we when we get through that. And I told you, I’d mentioned performance appraisals, again, you know, our HR business partner team spends time going through performance appraisals there in the field, they know a lot of our people. And again, for the HR people out there, you unfortunately know a lot of your people that you maybe you don’t want to know, because their names come up quite often. So we have those as well. But you know, if I said in our David hawthornes, meeting about feedback and performance, and I get to the performance appraisal later in the year, and and that’s not being discussed, shame on us, the performance appraisals, a recap of everything that you’ve talked about over the last six months a year, however, often you do your performance appraisals. So we owe it to that person to make that note, to memorialize that conversation that, hey, we talked about the issue made changes or you didn’t, and here’s where we are today. So they understand that. And so how is all this played out for us, as we’ve you know, had our HR business partners out there. And by the way, our HR business partners love as part of their job to really go out there and help people become better leaders and get better with their teams out there in the field, and making people better. So we began this project early last year 2019. And really started kicked off with those small group sessions where we talked about this and provided the framework for how this is going to work. And our turnover trends began reversing in late q3 as we look at the charts on our turnover trends. Those those lines went down in every single region. And it continued going down into March. Of course, March hits, pandemics here. We’re all dealing with that as well. I think there’s some other surveys and webinars out there for you to watch on that we have our own experiences with that as well. But as you might imagine, it’s severely muddied the waters on turnover and retention, especially for the restaurant industry, restaurants have been acutely hit with many closures and lock downs and semi closures throughout the country at different levels. So we still believe this is having the right impact. But it’s much harder to look at it and peel those numbers out with where the pandemics at going into March though 90% of our restaurants had at least a 10% drop in turnover over this over this time period significant. As an organization, we’ve dropped our turnover 30 points over that time. Very, very significant number. So we really feel like we’re on the right track to kind of make things happen really kind of build that accountable culture that we’re out, RSC, or restaurant Support Center or home office, our turnover was 40%. In 2018, we ended about 24% in 2019. And so far this year, we’re at 16%, annualized turnover, so much more in line with what we would expect our office to be kind of based on where we are. I might throw in that since 2018, we’ve not had another ping pong tournament, mostly because we ran out of room and we had to lose the ping pong room because we had to move more people in. But I do think we’re tryingto find a way to get that ping pong tournament back in still a very cool thing to do. We just know it’s not going to solve our turnover problems. We have engagement surveys, every six months, we do engagement surveys across the entire organization. We benchmarked our first engagement survey about three years ago.
And then we measure those same questions and kind of see where we are. We werein a good trend place. But unfortunately, our April survey was was kind of kicked outagain, pandemic. So we’re looking to try to get that going and get an October. So again, we’re expecting good results from that. But we’ll we’ll kind of see where we get to in October. I kind of sum this up as to why we believe this works and into fourreally kind of key areas. The first one is really all about feedback. We all love feedback, feedback. Fantastic. It’s not just from millennials. There’s a lot of data outthere that says millennials want consistent feedback. They don’t want annual performs reviews they want 30 day performance reviews. Hey feedbacks, not just for millennials, it’s for everybody. teaching people to give good feedback and being transparent in their communication is critical to building that culture of integrity andtrust, and accountability that we know we need to be successful. We also focus leaders on behaviors and results. We like to tell our leaders if you can’t describe what’s what’s wrong in such a way that you can see it in a movie screen. It’s not real, and you can’t attack it. So it’s always that my favorite one is all I need to talk to this person, they’ve got a bad attitude. I don’t know what bad attitude looks like, I’ve never seen it on a movie screen. Now. Can you describe it for me? Oh, they’re frowning all the time. They’re always angry, and they’re short and their words, okay,those are things I can see in a movie screen, let’s attack those behaviors, instead ofusing that bad attitude language to go after somebody. So as our leaders learn to focus on objective things, it becomes much easier to change those behaviors because you can see whether or not a change, you can show whether or not you made an impact to the team member who’s involved. The other one is everybody wants to be successful, everybody wants to grow. And by showing everybody how to grow, how to get better, we raise the ships in all waters everywhere, everybody feels better. leaders also quickly learn that this works, after they’ve had a couple of really good feedback sessions and realize, you know, hey, the world didn’t come to an end, because I had to sit down and tell David that that things weren’t right. We actually made improvements and kind of saw it. I have my own story from from just two weeks ago. I have a benefits manager. She’s relatively new benefits manager superstar benefits, but she’s never had a direct report. And she has a benefit specialist who reports to her to keep up with our benefits program or Benefit Specialist made a couple of pretty critical mistakes over the last month that we had to address. And so we I had the opportunity to do this with her to kind of work through this whole process and talk to our benefit specialists. And as you might imagine, we’re going into the conversation and she was shaking, she was so scared to have this conversation. We’re two weeks in, the team member took it very well. The leader came to me Just last week, it was like that was just so easy. If I just got through my own worry and paranoia about it, it would have just been the easiest thing in the world. So she knows that now. And now I trust that next time our Benefit Specialist misses the mark on something that she’s going to be able to step in and very quickly correct it and provide good concise communication and feedback around what happened. And and it’s going to make her a stronger leader. And those those are the good things. There’s some great resources out there,we do a book club with our HR business partner. So we go through probably four to five books a year with our teams. We don’t make them write book reports on them.
But when we’re in a book, we go out every two weeks, and we talk about hey, let’s talk about the last three chapters. And what did you learn and what did you pick up,etc. And these are really two of the books that we read over the course of 2019 thatwe thought had just some of the best philosophical discussion around this topic, as well as some really good how tos, radical candor by Kim Scott. She’s worked for Apple, Google, done lots of great things very, very good book, written and very, very great storytelling kind of language, easy to read, Crucial Conversations. Also very good book of little less storytelling a little it seems a little more academic. But again, lots of good stuff in it, really kind of dissecting for people why you had to have those crucial conversations and kind of talk to people. So highly recommend both of these books, our teams have used them and continue to refer back to them at several times. also encourage you reach out to to me if you’d like I know there are comments boxes that you’re able to fill out and send back comments or questions. We’ll be happy to get back and answer some of those things. Additionally, I would be happy to connect with you by on LinkedIn love talking aboutthis stuff. It’s one of my favorite things. My favorite role as chief people officers really being able to build leadership capability within our company. So really kind of love that. So want to thank you very much for taking the time to listen to me chat today. Hopefully you’ve gotten something from this and I look forward to connectingto you in the future. Bye
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